flea and by the way i'm amaze the bulgarian police to sion can talking learning terms about the european union when bulgaria is now the basket case importing tomatoes from thirty. eight in bulgaria used to supply all of eastern and central europe with vegeta bills only twenty years ago ok such a very quick comment is i want to conclude this now where's this going to lead to because after all it's been coming very clear now these protesters they don't just want a new association they want to get rid of the government the parliament the cabinet the president is that going to happen when the government survive the period believe that your new coach has weathered the storm and there will be no repetition of november of two thousand and four and robert oulds where do you think this is leading to. i joined with the european union in any kind of association agreement it doesn't make economic sense the bush group would recognize that several years ago when we studied the eastern neighborhood partnership customs union with its largest trading partners which of the other

c.e.o.'s states make far more sense than any do you with the european you know from what we've heard that it doesn't look like ukraine whatever join the european union like to say i'd like to say. it's successful in the european union so we have good results economic in the. social sphere saw. an employment of course to solve the problem. so i don't think we commence that. successful. integration because you want to play a role do you feel. it's really we really have run out of time. to go which international affairs expert robert oulds and also across the an election. on our international thank you very much for this fascinating discussion

we will be back in about thirty minutes as the news continues here on cross talk is next. just imagine a foreign leaders like alexander lukashenko of lattimer putin to shoot up an anti e.u. protest and all garia greece are hungry to urge people to leave the e.u. and join up with the eurasian customs union obviously the media would be on fire screaming that this is part of an attempt to usurp democracy and steal the country's away some sort of imperialist agenda and you know what they might be right about that but the weird thing is that for some reason the mainstream media isn't talking about foreign politicians speaking to and or possibly agitating protesters in ukraine like speaker of the lithuanian parliament loreto grows in india and vice president got sick proto c.

of each and former polish pm jaroslav kaczynski he had the european union brassfield is just fine for their politicians to go to foreign countries and fire up protestors to start a pro e.u. revolution but then all their journalists write about is how russia is trying to put pressure on ukraine to not join the e.u. the obvious hypocrisy of this stinks all the way up to moscow but that's just my opinion. hello and welcome to crossfire we're all things considered on peter lavelle palestine and the road ahead washington so-called peace process to resolve the israel palestine conflict has produced little if any results in fact the

palestinians are experiencing excel aerated illegal land seizures palestine is quickly being wiped off the map is it time to accept a one. state solution and or look to global institutions like the un to replace the current negotiating framework. to cross-talk the palestine israel conflict i'm joined by my guest so ryan support ehrlich in irvine she is an independent researcher and writer and in new york we crossed to norman finkelstein he is a political analyst and author of crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it and norman you've been a great scholar of the so-called peace process of the last twenty years coming to the studio today i noticed that the u.s. secretary of state has gone to the middle east to kick start talks well i could have read that headline almost any month of the last twenty years so norman isn't

it time to start a new format because it can't go in nowhere i don't quite agree with peter we have to be careful about what's happening now because i do think it is going somewhere but not the place where justice would more to go right now secretary of state kerry president obama and various other parties to the conflict seem pretty optimistic that they can ram down the road to the palestinians is really tied settlement of the conflict but the palestinians have never been weaker than hamas is now a no factor the power of the so-called palestinian authority is totally dependent upon the united states and europe to stay alive to support it economically the palestinians are in a very difficult situation probably and so they said they have never been weaker and now the united states along with the e.u.

incidentally united states and the e.u. think there is a historic opportunity to resolve the conflict. in such a way that the posted. and so left with virtually nothing ok so ryan so what kind of agreement is that how can you have an agreement like that with no justice. i honestly don't believe this time so going anywhere and i don't think they're intended to go anywhere is just lip service if you look out to mr obama's speech in two thousand and eleven the word he actually mentioned the nine hundred sixty seven borders with some swaps it was intended for the palestinians not to ask for recognition at the united nations and after that mr netanyahu came to the united states and i'm sure you viewers would know that congress has far more powers or is the most powerful branch of the u.s. government he came and here dressed the united states congress in forty minutes he got twenty nine standing ovations in which he categorically refuse to recognize

those boundaries and i think it's very important to understand that as long as there is an alley it that means that every jewish person from anywhere in the world can go and live in israel then israel is to continue to expand and is doing so at the expense of the palestinians with american money so no i am for the peace talks i think norman would certainly know the reputation of martin indyk he worked for a packet then he started the washington institute for near east policy to give a clear image to the pro israel. doctrine here in the space and he is not a person that would be suitable for negotiating peace talks if peace talks are to take place and certainly not somebody as biased and as pro israel is. ok norman and you know when i saw you on democracy now with mr martin and he wasn't very pleased

to see you i remember. could you report react to what what we just heard in irvine because i mean when you look at suddenly somebody like martin indyk i have to keep being reminded is he negotiating with the americans or is the negotiating for the israelis because it's hard to tell. well i think that one has to look at what the rhetorical position of people like prime minister netanyahu netanyahu is and what their actual position is if you look at the negotiations that took place in annapolis in two thousand and eight it was quite clear what the israeli position was in a word or in a nutshell what israel wants is approximately ten percent of the west bank the area behind the wall that it's been building taking in the major settlement blocks that israel wants a nullification of the palestinian right of return basically an international solution of the refugee question which doesn't allow palestinians to return to what

is now the state of israel those are israel's two key demands and the opinion of the united states and israel is and also as i have to always be european union the position now is let's resolve the conflict according to the israeli terms that is not ten yo who make a grand show where he's withdrawing from ninety percent of the west bank to the ten percent behind the wall and in the exchange for this grand concession by the israelis the palestinians are going to have to give up the right of return that's basically how the theater the drama is going to play itself out and if you look at yesterday's for example reports yesterday in the israeli press the e.u. made a statement it said to israel and the palestinian authority you better get serious

about negotiations now because if you don't resolve the conflict we're going to cease subsidizing the projects no bus bank so basically the e.u. is now colluding collaborating with the us. turning the screws on the problem is that i didn't see the purpose behind the current murderous blockade of gaza to break the will of the people of god so so they repudiate hamas the palestinian authority will then claim to speak for all the palestinians the palestinian authority will because who really has no choice could see the to the us is really demands which the e.u. is going along with ok but so ryan it's very interesting what norman has to say going back to annapolis but if i don't see mr netanyahu he's not there's not enough pressure on him to change course as a matter of fact if you look at israeli media very close closely and i know norman

looks at i mean if the israelis see that they have a whole lot of cards here ok maybe netanyahu and obama don't get along very well but netanyahu does have the congress ok and you know we i don't see a lot of sticks coming out from apac i mean you know iran is one issue but you know when you look at the palestinian israel conflict congress is really very close to netanyahu is positioning and i don't see anything changing in ok the european union will drop funding that's not going to change the israeli position not one iota i bet. you are going to learn to let me go to iraq you're really going to go ahead. i think the europeans talk about this a great deal and even as for mr obama's position here when he was running for office in two thousand and eight he promised and untied the jerusalem to israel as its capital and even president bush has not said anything so outrageous and mr obama keeps on his administration and they keep increasing aid to israel it's not

as if you know they're playing good cop bad cop but it depends how seriously you take obama. you know not long ago two three years ago the state department even assigned some money to middle east to memory middle east. media research institute which was founded by an israeli army the idea and it was to pinpoint anti-semitism i mean the israeli is their positions are so backed by the united states and the e.u. is their greatest partner trading partner if things are not going to change until there is awareness amongst the people around the world in america people are simply too ignorant they have been brainwashed they have freedom of speech but they don't have freedom of thought all the information they have about what's going on in palestine and with israelis is what the media tells them and the media is squarely

in the pockets of the neo cons the think tanks run issues and even the universities there is no freedom to discuss the issue of israel and palestine but most importantly we keep thinking about seeing a pact a pact that seems that it's just a muscle it's the soldier all the same tanks the the alto defamation in the hudson washington is to new policies stop on center these are the people doubt that actually turn out these policies and they're implemented and as as as you said i mean mr obama will be gone the next president can easily overrule what ever he implements so the important thing is to have congress deal with this situation and congress is reluctant congress takes this orders from israel it does not serve the american people and to me this is treason this is betrayal and yes they managed to get away with it chuck schumer of new york senator of new york stands up and says

i'm the guardian of israel is sort of a stand he got up and telling the american people that he is there to serve them he says is the shore of israel the guardian and many other such senators and congressional members ok let me let me let me let norman all right i want. you want to react to some of that. well peter i'm going to quote someone who i know you don't like so much name me namely vladimir lenin. and one said that the us is the politics lenin once said the essence of politics is the concrete analysis of a concrete situation ok and i think the important thing now because we're heading towards a historic turning point and we have to be very careful about what's happening we have to be concerned about what's happening we have to concrete concretely analyze this concrete situation the fact of the matter is secretary of state kerry is

nobody's fool he would not invest so much time and so much energy in resolving the conflict unless he thought there was a realistic possibility that it can be resolved the last thing kerry wants now norman norman i'm going to let you can't help it norman i want to go to a short break i'll let you could genuinely return after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the palestine israel conflict state money. lead.

dramas that can't be ignored. stories others refuse to notice. faces change the world lights never. full picture of safety. from around the globe. up to. fifty. so the lesson we teach to the world is that the best way to defend yourself is to get yourself a nuclear weapon and of course the biggest culprit of using nuclear weapons and producing nuclear weapons and weapons about struction is my birth nation of the

united states and i find it absolutely insane that we sit here and talk about iran's suppose of nuclear weapons program when you know the united states is producing every kind of weapon under the sun is spending more than every other military on the planet combined and it's involved in more war and more death and more suffering than every other nation combined and yet it's sitting there on a pedestal talking about other nations developing weapons of mass destruction it is insane that we even allow them to do this the first nation that needs to disarm without question is the united states. please. welcome back to cross talk more all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the palestine israel conflict.

ok norm and i go back to you in new york to let me i want you to react to something a lot of people tell me that study this conflict that they say that if israel stops its colonizing settlement agenda in the west bank and further it risks the very nature the very existence of israel because it must continue down this path because it's become its own true identity. no i don't really think or you know there is this tendency to look at countries in terms of this notion of a regional sin that is to say israel was born in sin and therefore have to live in sin and therefore there is no possibility of it changing any state has within the possibilities of change i lived in the united states through the civil rights era when i was growing up in the early one nine hundred fifty s.

black people were still being lynched in the american south i lived through a transformation transformation such that the president of the united states is now african-american if you look at the first half of the twentieth century without trying to excuse any of the other great powers i think it's fair to say that the most notorious and racist powers on earth in the first half of the twentieth century were germany and japan but if you look at b.b.c. world service pows from the last twenty years when the countries around the world when the public opinion around the world is asked the question which countries in the world have the most positive the most favorable impact on international relations if you look at these b.b.c. pows believe there are no every year germany is number one and japan is number two or japan is number one and germany is number two countries can

change ok that it's no mention or many of my years here in the army but if i use your logic then if i use your logic then israel must be invaded and conquered in occupied like germany and like japan to change its behavior that's the logic. well not exactly peter because i began with the example of the american south and you can also take the example of south africa and those two. instances where that required was a mass popular nonviolent movement supported by international public opinion those were the key ingredients that be a mass popular nonviolent movement with a large amount of international support i think the same formula that worked in the american south and worked in south africa i think that formula can also work to end

the israeli occupation ok so if i go back to you to irvine a i doubt i will agree with norman that countries can change their countries can change for the worse look at that i think the better ones would probably agree with that i think you know africa africans that are all so ended up in israel somehow would probably agree that things are changing for the worse because each government gets more and more right wing and more and more racist what use can you hear on israeli television in each would be is forbidden on american television because some officials are so blatantly racist. i'm duster and again i do agree was normal also the countries can change but they can only change if there's a will to change israel does not have this well if you look at the popularity of mr netanyahu in israel his popularity is an all time high after he basically softened mr obama about the you know to state solution and norm himself had was kind

enough to pass a youtube video of how israelis are using children young children teaching them hatred discrimination and the law to kill arabs lebanese gazans so there is no wills are to change and america's encouraging this by allowing it to happen by overriding every single un security council resolution if you go to the jewish virtual library they they gladly and proudly mention how many times the u.s. has vetoed un security council resolutions so there can be no change when there's no will and one of the most important factors is israel has a need to expand it because it wants to embrace more and more people at the moment you know we were talking talks may go somewhere but the children of gaza the people of gaza are walking in sewage to go to school if there's a school to be found because there's no fuel why is there no fuel in one nine hundred ninety nine there was no massive amounts of gas in gaza british gas was

going to explore israel put a stop to it sharon said i will never buy gas from gaza they want to own it they want to own the water in the region because that's if you expand then you have land people need water you make import fuel but you can't do it with water so they wanted to get water from turkey and in order to do that iraq and syria have to be eliminated so there's no stop to this and their own as you say you hear things on israeli television you don't hear in america and america sanitizes ever. thing the american people continue to hear from their officials that israel is our democratic ally in the region that is so false it is not an ally is costing america so much money it's bankrupted america's physically morally and politically and it's not an ally it's is just destroying the countries around and it's destroyed america's standing in the world and the people of america need to be informed he says nobody

is talking about what's happening in gaza in west fact what israel is doing we're talking about all other things here in america there's a deliberate attempt to keep the people ignorant god forbid the americans should stand up and say i don't want my money to go to people who committing heinous crimes borderline genocide and i can't eat here i'm hopeless but i'm contributing not only to the people of israel that are there at the moment but anybody who wishes to come with us from africa whether it's from asia they can everybody can go there and my tax dollars will fund them this is what americans don't know and it's it's about time that the other media started concentrating on this but then of course the media goes well we know who the ownerships are normal you know convince me that netanyahu is going to pull a new company goes to china. try to convince me. peter i think there is

a misunderstanding here and i'm doing my best to try to clarify a number one just let me get back to the point that was just made ok of course i agree that israel unless it's forced to won't change the african-american. frederick douglass he famously said power never concedes anything without a demand never has it never will so of course pressure has to be applied to israel in order to get the two to act in accordance with international law i have no doubt about that that's why i said there has to be a mass movement from below that has to be nonviolent and there has to be a lot of international popular public opinion support to get israel to budge so on that point there is no disagreement between any of us now on the question of not in yahoo you have to remember that israel if there were an academy award for best

dramatic performance by a country israel would win every year it's a real it's a theater and not to know who of course not to know who is the star of the theater so i said a few moments ago that we have to distinguish between israel's rhetorical position and its actual position now simply livni who was the foreign minister in two thousand and eight she's repeatedly said that the wall israel is building the wall is our final border israel wants about ten percent of the west bank which includes some of the most arab oil lend it includes the critical water resources it includes east jerusalem and very sickly it try sext the west bank leaving the palestinians a bad. stern so effectively they want to turn percent of the world but not turn

yahoo star of the show he pretends israel wants all of the west bank and then jury negotiations the claim will be israel's making the heart wrenching concert sheehan gives of ninety percent of the words but are giving up ninety percent of the world spurring israel will then get to keep all it really warns exactly as livni keep saying the war is our final border israel wouldn't be investing billions and billions of dollars into building this wall if it wanted territory beyond the wall ok if i go back to irvine you know i mean hey i had a hard time doing it's not is go ahead go ahead go ahead. jump in i'm sorry if it's not just the war and the west bank and gaza they're in lebanon now or syria

actually because it's syria golan's there they're drilling gaster they're taking somebody else's gas and oil that they're not content i mean it's it would be i at enormous far too bright and far too well informed to be naive enough to take the words of an israeli leader when it comes to their expansion and their expansionist policies they are never content they are always asking for more and it's in the end this for some bizarre world not for some bizarre reason the united states always gives in to them it's become this they've become like the monster of frankenstein i mean the united states made israel what it is today with all that support and now it has instilled the monster that turns around to dr frankenstein and says obey me and america's obeying and nothing will change unless the mentality yes i'm hung. presented with norm that we need grassroots movement but there will be no

grassroots movement when people are ignored when people are misinformed deliberately this is censorship one thinks the censorship is just cutting out news but it's misinformation as well and americans are not being a task given a chance to learn what's going on normally even in universities you know this you cannot discuss israel in universal right i'm not wrong that's very critical point i'm sorry we've run out of time many thanks to my guests in irvine and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time remember cross talk rules.

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